Someone once told me, any illegal thing can become legal if you add extra steps. This is not _legally_ true, but it is _practically_ true. Evading a tariff is illegal, until you start using a proxy-country. Firing an employee, and not giving them severance is illegal, until you find a way to make their job so miserable, that they quit on their own. Really, if you can turn signal into _noise_, it becomes difficult and expensive for the enforcement organs to actually enforce their own rules.
It is unclear to me just what percentage of tech-companies, are in the business of adding extra steps to an illegal process, of turning signal into noise. For example, the vapes made by Juul are a kind of hack around public health laws. The Amazon marketplace shields merchants who sell counterfeit goods. Uber and Lyft bypassed the local laws that applied to taxi services and the medallion system. Airbnb did something similar with the laws governing hotels, and delineating who owns and who rents.
It is a special kind of disappointment, to be someone who loves technology, and to have to work in the technology industry -- because it appears to be run by people who hate everything that is not money.
People were always able to "instantly use it at the drop of a hat" (paraphrased). What people are objecting to, is instant use without any acknowledgement or attribution (the minimum courtesy). They also object to being mistreated by people who have never actually had to type characters of code into a text-editor, or figure out how to use a build-system and version-control-system. And finally, they object to having their _free_ and _generous_ labor turn millionaires into billionaires (and billionaires into trillionaires), while they themselves still have to pay that one mortgage they have, and medical bills, and tuition, and so on.
They object to the systematized devaluing of their work. They object to becoming a class of invisible laborers (who only become visible when there is need to blame someone).
Funny how, when Aaron Swartz did the exact same thing (in a much narrower and more focused way), he was driven to suicide by the US government, but when Sam and Dario do it, people argue about whether (or not) "IP is real".
Note that society is more about justice than it is about philosophy or logic. Whether you believe that IP makes logical sense or not, is not terribly relevant through the lens of justice. To allow the Altmans and Amodeis of the world to escape the kinds of consequences that Swartz could not (despite having purer intentions than either -- despite being a genuine utilitarian, instead of an aspiring oligarch _pretending_ to be one), would be the height of injustice.
It would be a grotesque and cruel insult to all the people who remember Swartz, and share his values and optimism about the internet and computers.
Why would I want it to happen to more people? This is, at least to me, an insane point of view.
"Oh my god, the police just shot a black man for no reason. To make this fair they should also shoot more white people for no reason". Do you see how absolutely unhinged that sounds?
There are two injustices here. The first injustice is the sheer existence of this notion of intellectual property. The second injustice stems from the selective application of the associated laws.
Intellectual property should not exist, but since it does, one can and should expect it to be applied consistently in all cases. Just look at what they did to Kim Dotcom, he basically got destroyed. SWAT rappelled down helicopters and descended upon this guy for the egregious crime of copying bits. That's exactly what should happen to Anthropic, OpenAI, Google and Meta. Anything less than that is an insult to previous enforcement victims.
Inconsistency robs authorities of all credibility. Selective enforcement exposes them for the arbitrary tyrants they are and delegitimizes their decisions.
"For my friends, everything. For everyone else, the law."
And
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
I usually shit post on this website because it’s full of amoral idiots who just want to make a lot of money and don’t care about others, but I want to suggest to you that arguing using extreme analogies is almost never a persuasive rhetorical device. The other person almost always just sees the way it doesn’t accurately apply to the situation.
I didn't want to bring up Aaron Swartz myself first, but now that you did and proved the point I did not want to post first, I nevertheless will:
It's a cruel and sad irony that people invoke Aaron Swartz to argue directly opposite worldviews depending on prevailing fashion, making him into some kind of perpetuum mobile in his grave. Literally the same arguments, using his memory to argue position that's opposite to what was argued two years ago, back before AI fully took off.
I personally doubt Aaron would be against AI companies doing what they did on the grounds of intellectual property. There's plenty of things to hate about how AI is transforming the world, but this is not it.
The funny thing about having a divine source for rights is also recognizing that humans are fallible and thus inevitably going to be unable to live up to that standard. This argument is the basis for people who want government to have limited powers- the less power it has, the less it can abuse it.
There's a flip side to this as well- President Lincoln famously suspended habeus corpus unilaterally in violation of the Constitution, outright ignoring a Supreme Court ruling in the process. It became moot when Congress retroactively approved the suspension and allowed it to continue for the remainder of the civil war. Lincoln remains celebrated, despite what could rightfully be argued as blatantly unconstitutional power grabs.
The use of the term divine at the time was more of an aftereffect of most people having some kind of belief in god and using that as a casus belli to redistribute power. The actual causal reasons seem more technological and more of England spreading themselves too thin. Lincoln went on to further prove there is no divine power enforcing these rights, it's the distribution of power and information that defines the rights you have. The Constitution is simply a piece of paper, not an agent.
We see this happening again in our modern world. Technology has allowed us to concentrate information like never before. If you believe knowledge (hence processing of information) is power then we've created new power structures that must change society.
Now, we can say things like "well, you can't concentrate information" but the other party can simply disagree and say it's my divine right to. You're at an impasse unless you plan on taking up a path to violence (any and every legal action is implied violence).
> Lincoln went on to further prove there is no divine power enforcing these rights,
This is a straw man that nobody is arguing.
> Now, we can say things like "well, you can't concentrate information"
Again, nobody is arguing that "concentrating information" is bad. They're arguing that the expression of ideas in a specific format is a type of property, and that what AI companies are doing is immoral theft. Further, states and the federal government have the means and impetus to prosecute theft according to the powers given them by the Constitution. The only thing that is stopping them from doing so is that the claim that theft has occurred is contested, and the method in question has not been successfully tried in court in the broad.
This site actually reminds of the TUIs that one uses to install an OS from the text-console. It's not so bad. The prose itself is irritating. The site itself also has some bugs (text overlapping with UI borders for no reason). The lime-green color is a little awkward to my eye, but maybe that's just me (I say this as someone who usually likes lime-green -- maybe the problem is that this site needs _more_ lime-green).
The various advances in LLM technology tend to rhyme with the advances in computer programming in general. For example, the stunts that involved getting LLMs to create compilers and browsers are really just extremely expensive[0] versions of genetic programming (none of it would have worked without using the test-suite as a fitness-function). The recent news of migrations from one test-framework to another (featuring Asana, I believe), was something that we could always do trivially in a language that was based on S-Expressions (Lisp, Scheme, etc).
In fact, both Cyc and the "AI" Labs have the _same basic thesis_: Intelligence is, primarily, a data entry problem. They just disagree about what kinds of heuristics should be run over that data (logic-programs, neural-nets).
Whenever I read about someone using LLMs to write code, it _very closely_ resembles how Lenat was using Eurisko/Cyc to solve problems: they let the system run continuously, and they "nudge" it in "interesting" directions, "when it gets stuck", or "runs out of steam". (Quotes indicate their phrasing, not mine)
Even Lee Spector noticed something analogous with his genetic programming system. When he tried to get it to discover optimal data structures (or maybe it was sorting algorithms, I forget), the system would quickly "run out of steam", without a solution. But when they added new verbs/opcodes to the system, that were a better fit for that domain (e.g. index-based memory loads + stores), it converged on a solution very quickly (even for GP, domain specific languages keep delivering unreasonable wins). You will note that this rhymes with the "micro-theories" of Cyc, which in turn rhyme with the SLMs of the AI labs.
In my personal experience, most of the "silver bullets" do not work (obviously), but some of them do nudge you towards being a better programmer (by refining your intuition about the problem specifically, and computers more generally).
EDIT: just remembered something. LLMs tend to produce larger and larger programs over time, and most people (IIRC) interpret this as a kind of entropy. This happens to rhyme with a similarly observed behavior in GP. Most genetic programs that do not have a fitness function that rewards smaller size, tend to grow in an unbounded way. The reason for this, is that most of the code/genes are useless, and random mutations do not lobotomize the program under evolution. I suspect that the coding LLMs tend to grow their code for similar reasons.
[0]: I suspect that, this was mostly a triumph of enormous amounts of hardware, more than the actual LLM technology. I further suspect that a traditional GP approach, on the same quantity of hardware, could have gotten there faster (if not better as well).
I would not necessarily call it genetic programming. But you can discover the same pattern e.g. for human knowledge. We have a domain language for math and when we go deeper we will have domain language for algebra, discrete math etc.. and we could go even further to breaking it to even for more specific areas simply to compact the information to deliver. The goal is more and precise information with less words, it might be for communication or to be able to fit the knowledge into the processing capacity.
So for me it is not like the advances in programing languages, but more like to compacting information/representation with domain language. It's similar but not quite genetic programming.
I am not calling it GP. I am pointing out that AI-coding systems tend to resemble GP systems in terms of both broad architecture, and in terms of how the code/genome is generated. Also, I already mentioned domain specific languages, in the context of GP, and how (effectively) creating one (i.e. selecting only relevant genes/verbs) that was a better match for the problem domain, made the GP find a solution infinitely faster[0]. Clearly these two things are not contradictory, and are clearly related, to the point that they can be combined. I am not sure what about my comment gave you the impression that I thought one was contradictory with the other. Hope this follow-up clears things up.
[0]: Because, in effect, we are decreasing the size of the search-space. Every programming-language project is basically a set of bets, that the design choices will decrease the size of the search space for the users of that language (most Unix commands fit this pattern, as do most well designed APIs). Mathematics is similar, in that the notation is specialized and sparse (even the named constants and variables have symbolic names, instead of meaningful names). Most system dynamics models could have the names of entities replaced with id-numbers, and they would continue to function. The whole point of (for example) a library is to give a tiny parameterized notation/language, that the user can use to express a solution to their problem, in terms of the problem domain itself. This decreasing of the search-space, is an act of compression. I have to say, I am a little confused by your reply, because it has the tone of a disagreement, but it does not really disagree with anything that I have written. Also, I have given various examples to support my analogies, but you have offered zero examples, and I suspect that there would be less confusion (on my part) if you did.
This is a lesser-of-two-evils situation. Before acquisitions became the new "meta" in Silicon Valley, the old meta was that gigantic quasi-monopolies, like Microsoft, burn money and man-years embracing, extending, and extinguishing your product.
I heard (literally with my ears, during a pseudo-dinner-thing, so this may be apocryphal, so you may have to do some spelunking through sources) that Microsoft "bought" the source code of some browser-project, for a percentage of the revenues that come from Internet Explorer. The catch was that IE was bundled with Windows for free, so a percentage of zero is zero.
A definite fact, is that when Netscape folded, the industry -- and the investors that got burned by the rapaciousness of Microsoft -- finally got in-sync enough to lobby and agitate for the antitrust lawsuit that almost broke Microsoft up. A consequence of that lawsuit is that quasi-monopolies like Meta, Google, etc, started buying promising startups instead of burying them.
I am not sure that a world where Nvidia just out-spends Hugging Face, via its quasi-monopoly-revenues, is better than the one we are currently in.
If I have to choose between two evils, I'd obviously choose the lesser one. But maybe we can do even better, and choose the absence of evil?
Maybe companies should have "weight-classes" the same way that most sports have those, to match opponents. (After all, despite both being remarkable sportists, Koga cannot defeat Ogawa, who is a few weight-classes heavier). Something like this is how France protects (or tries to) its own small business owners (I am told, they still have many small independent bookstores, despite competition from Amazon, and chain-bookstores before that).
The venture-capital does _somewhat_ balance the scales, but not by much, and it encourages the pursuit of _exits_ instead of _excellence_ (not shaming anyone for taking an exit, I am just saying that the alternative is systematically penalized -- only the very lucky or very protected can pursue excellence).
A friend of mine was once tasked with writing a kind of simulation that simulates millions of scenarios per session/run, and searches for a best-so-far solution while doing so. He proposed writing it in Rust (justifying it as: fast, low level, fewer memory bugs, fewer parallelism bugs (so potentially faster than "fast")), and management over-ruled them, and insisted on using raw/plain Python (without even an underlying C library), "because that is the industry standard", and "premature optimization is the root of all evil", and "nobody else knows Rust"[0].
Another friend, worked at a company, that got a new manager (I think as a result of a merger), and that manager halted all work on "yak shaving" projects. These "yak shaving" projects were things like logging, and debugging, and some kind of integrity-verification. When asked why they were being halted, the new manager said: "none of our customers asked for any of these things". When told that these things enable the team to produce a better product for the customers, the manager (I am told) looked at them with confusion and suspicion. Those projects were never improved since, and the product stopped improving as well. I am not sure if it affected their business (the pandemic was much more distortive).
What you call "business logic", is not even logic, and it has little to do with business. It is what Feynman called a "cargo cult". The obvious name for it is "cargo cult business management/logic".
It truly is embarrassing and shameful that after decades of idiotic decisions, it took a _trillion_[1] dollars of investment into a chat-bot technology, to finally crack open _one_[2] door to slightly less idiotic decisions, while opening dozens of new doors to decisions of an unknowable character.
Most companies (and, consequently, their engineering organizations) are simply _cosplaying_ as the things they are supposed to be.
I do not see how an AI assistant (or any kind of assistant or consultant) can save these fools from themselves. The only logical explanation is that most software companies are cursed -- you would have much better luck engaging a witch-doctor.
[0]: Nobody else knew C or C++ either. The fact is, that nobody cared. In fact, even Go would have been a better choice than raw Python, but nobody cared. Even Common Lisp (which is at least as abstract as Python, and has native execution speeds (GC and runtime type-checking can be turned off for compute-heavy workloads that mutate data in-place)), is a better choice, and yet, an _abundance_ of obviously superior options (all implemented and maintained by obviously superior engineers) was not enough to prevent the organization from choosing an inferior one, and using it stupidly (without a fast native-code component).
[1]: I see estimates from hundreds of billions to a trillion, depending on how you count it.
Back in college (around 15 years ago), I read a few books on eminence by Dean Kieth Simonton. One thing that I remember, and that has always been in the back of my mind, is that certain studies found that (in the USA), children who grow up in bilingual and bicultural households tend to have a much greater chance of achieving some measure of eminence in their adult lives. I am not sure if this is true globally (nor if it is still true in the USA). But I suspect that there is a reason[0] why so many eminent people came from Austria-Hungary for _generations_ (even the generations after the collapse of that particular empire).
[0]: There were 10 distinct languages, making up 98% of all languages in the empire. My understanding is that most citizens had to learn German, even though only 20% of the population spoke German as a mother tongue. Also a few different language branches (Germanic, Ugric, Slavic, Romance), with one of those branches (Ugric) not being Indo-European at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_and_religious_compositi...
So, I know I am late to this discussion by a week (the coding rarely stops, and I often miss big developments), but, I was at Joyent when it was acquired by Samsung, and their interest was very similar to most Joyent customers: to find a way to shrink their tumorous, ever-growing AWS bill[0]. By acquiring Joyent, they did not have to build their own cloud-software from scratch, and they did not have to Ship-of-Theseus their internal legacy infrastructure. More importantly, they also got a team that knew how to maintain and improve that software stack.
While I practically never agree with the guy, Thiel did say that "every startup is a conspiracy". Which is just another way of saying that every business is a conspiracy. The Oxide "conspiracy"[1] is to divert a chunk of the enormous economic surplus that is being captured by Amazon (and Broadcom, and others), and in the process, put some meaningful amount of that surplus in the pocket of the customer (otherwise, there is no reason to switch).
This is an incredibly ambitious goal, that cannot be achieved without upfront capital. Part of it is certainly hardware (which is getting more expensive, rapidly, and so it might make sense to buy years-worth of it), but another part is the _switching cost_ (which the _challenger/conspirator_ usually has to cover for the customer). That cost can easily be measured in the millions of dollars (Dropbox, famously, migrated off of AWS, via a client-side reupload, because moving the data from AWS to their own DCs was prohibitively expensive[2]).
Also, WW3 is slowly unfolding. The only reason energy prices are not in "brownout territory" is because (IIUC) the world's largest oil consumer is importing half as much oil from the mid-east as it used to. A few of the things that I buy, have _not_ gotten more expensive in euros, but they have gotten more expensive in dollars (by around 5% last I checked). If you need to use dollars to stockpile input-goods, now is the best time to do that, if you anticipate that the dollar will lose value over the next year.
A similar logic applies to selling a company. Amazon, in 2016, was already on the path to _massively_ improving the performance of its VMs and cloud services (via using more SSDs, building custom hardware, etc), and bare-metal performance was one of the Joyent selling points. With the resources of a company like Samsung, Joyent could also (potentially) use faster hardware, etc.
However, even under the aegis of Samsung, some (let's call them) _political asymmetries_ could not be avoided. I cannot talk about _internal_ asymmetries, but _external_ ones are already public knowledge. In particular, in 2017 or 2018, spectre and meltdown CPU-exploits hit the industry. All the major cloud providers had advance knowledge of this (and were able to mitigate via KPTI), except for Joyent (who had to work with the OpenBSD community for a few months to fix this). In those few months, if customers wanted to be completely safe, they would have had to move their instances to a different cloud. It is unclear (to me, because I am an engineer and not an accountant or account manager) if Joyent could have survived that without being part of Samsung.
And by the way, this would not have been as urgent of a problem, if Joyent was selling physical machines (like Oxide is, right now), instead of renting them out to multiple tenants. Imagine if an adversary could just spin up a VM right next to yours on the same exact machine. Even without spectre and meltdown, they could probably impact the performance and latency of your VMs indirectly, if they were willing to spend enough money. I once did this by accident (because I, foolishly, overestimated Google) on GCP, via their lambda-equivalent, and found out when they told us that those workloads were moved to a different DC. So if this is a problem for _Google_, it's a problem for everyone.
For at least the last decade, HN has consistently (but, thankfully, not exclusively) been attacking Joyent (and now Oxide), for various perceived misbehaviors[3], while frequently letting much less ambitious projects off the hook. Engineering any meaningfully new or disruptive technology is a very challenging marathon, and doing so, in business circumstances (which can only be characterized as: circumstances where the other runners are armed and always out to get you, while sometimes, the universe itself decides to send a few lightning bolts and storms in your direction) is almost impossible, without either (1) a monopoly, like MSFT and GOOG and AMZN enjoy, or (2) massive amounts of investment-cash that can only come from a very smart and very keen sugar daddy[4].
[0]: I can't recall who said this, but someone at the time said, they were tired of buying Bezos a BMW every month (via their AWS bill). Sometimes, it wasn't even an issue with the size of the bill: Amazon competes with many, many companies out there.
[1]: Based on various public statements. So basically, the Joyent conspiracy, but this time on-prem (so maybe Joyent + Fishworks = Oxide), and with fewer faulty drives (IIRC, there was a batch of drives, worth a huge amount of money, that had bad firmware, which caused their throughput to drop sporadically -- the exact details escape me, but you can see why there is a distrust of firmware written by others (also worth noting, is that this HDD vendor did not even offer to replace the faulty drives, but instead offered a marginal discount on the next order)).
[2]: Not because of any real, physical cost, but because Amazon bills you for every byte that leaves their datacenter (but not for any byte that enters).
[3]: I think it started when Joyent did not honor the "lifetime storage" promise that it made to its customers from the 2000s.
[4]: If anyone knows any wealthy heiresses that are looking to get married (or for a concubine), in exchange for financing my ambition to build an invention that is simultaneously (1) the last invention humanity will ever need, and (2) the invention that humanity needs most urgently, please hit me up. I have a sense of humor and am hung AF.
Thank you for the response. I appreciate it. I ran SmartOS in production and enjoyed it thoroughly. I am sad to see it not doing as well as I had hoped. Thank for again for the long detail
The worst part of this, is that projects that present themselves like this, poison the pool for everyone else. I imagine that many people are now disinclined to ever publish a hand-coded project in this genre (retro-computing), because people might assume that this was a trivial project (e.g. what are you so proud of, my baby 12-year-old nephew did something similar two weekends ago, just by yapping at his phone, while waiting for level-loading-screen to finish).
The Haiku project (an OS based on BeOS), is a remarkable achievement. It is sad that we may never see such things again, because people want their achievements to mean something, and, increasingly, intellectual achievements are becoming (unjustly and misleadingly) trivialized by the LLM hype machine.
It feels like humanity is deliberately making itself colorblind.
It is unclear to me just what percentage of tech-companies, are in the business of adding extra steps to an illegal process, of turning signal into noise. For example, the vapes made by Juul are a kind of hack around public health laws. The Amazon marketplace shields merchants who sell counterfeit goods. Uber and Lyft bypassed the local laws that applied to taxi services and the medallion system. Airbnb did something similar with the laws governing hotels, and delineating who owns and who rents.
It is a special kind of disappointment, to be someone who loves technology, and to have to work in the technology industry -- because it appears to be run by people who hate everything that is not money.
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